00:00.00
Kent
Hello everyone and this is the remix podcast. My name is kent to see odds and I'm so excited to be joined by my friend Diva Um Diva I'm blanking on your last name so you're gonna have to tell us all right? Awesome! um.

00:11.36
Divya
Yeah, um, it's sasy darran but you can call me Divvia That's fine.

00:18.67
Kent
And I guess I should apologize I I do have a little bit of a sore throat so that is what you're hearing on my end but I'm excited to chat with Diva divvi and I have known each other for quite some time. Um I think the first time we ever met was when we spoke at a conference together at at. Um, what was that front end.

00:28.12
Divya
Here.

00:36.68
Divya
I Think it's like yes, um Framework summit. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah.

00:38.60
Kent
Summit or framework summit. Yeah that's right? Yeah yeah, we um, we actually had a really cool talk put together. Um by not Brian man oh shoot blanking on his name too. Oh no. So bad I got to go look it up. Nobody tell him that I forgot his first name I know his last name is man um, isaac man. Yeah I knew it wasn't brian. But yeah so isaac put together this cool talk idea where he was coming from the angular community I was coming from react and you were coming from Vue Divue was coming from vue.

00:58.20
Divya
Ah, you can edit that isaac isaac.

01:12.60
Divya
Here.

01:14.93
Kent
And we kind of took a couple code examples and showed how to do these different patterns in different frameworks. It was really cool I actually really, that's one of my favorite talks I've given and yeah and then I've just enjoyed following you on Twitter um, and everything. Um, and now you've.

01:22.85
Divya
Is.

01:31.71
Kent
Made a move from you. You were at netlify before now you're at fly. Um, so yeah I'm kind of like taking your thunder I Guess sorry why don't you go ahead and and fill in any of the gaps that I missed and introduce yourself. Yeah.

01:32.58
Divya
Yeah, yeah, yeah, now it's all good. Yeah. No, that's that's actually a really good introduction. Um I used to work at netlify for like the last three years and I just recently moved to fly io it's a very different role in a way because I was doing a lot of front end and like web full stack and now I'm doing a bit more of like. Platform-oriented work. So. It's a very different domain altogether. There's a lot to learn which has been really interesting and like unique. Um and I've really enjoyed that I think it's netlify sort of put me on a path to us working on developer tooling. Which is sort of what I'm doing at fly and I really like it. It's kind of a niche um in that sense because your users are very specific. It's not like the general public. It's specifically developers and then especially with fly because we're pretty low level. Um. There's a it's like a niche within developers itself who want access to their servers and access to like configuring how exactly their code is going to run.

02:46.43
Kent
So yeah, fly is definitely the the most. Um well I wouldn't say it's the the most low-leve platform I've used. It's certainly when I first got into web development I was deploying on openshift that was like the first big one that I deployed on.

02:54.68
Divya
And this.

03:00.10
Divya
Um, okay, yeah, and.

03:04.63
Kent
Or like anything real and ah openshift was definitely way lower level like I was ss itching into that thing all the time and of course like I actually just ss hd into one of my fly apps a couple of days ago and fly makes it way easier than openshift ever was um, but.

03:16.12
Divya
Nice, yeah.

03:24.15
Kent
But yeah, what I like about fly is that it it is really low levelve but it doesn't actually feel as low level as it is so like it's It's certainly low more low level than something like vercell or something where um, you've got like all this developer tooling on on top of it. But if you ever wanted to go any deeper.

03:29.76
Divya
Is definitely yeah.

03:42.53
Kent
Ah, something like verce. You just couldn't ah you don't have that or or netlify as well. Ah, you don't have that level of control or flexibility whereas with fly if you need to go deeper the tools are there to make you go deeper. So um, when I was rebuilding my website um that that was 1 thing that.

03:44.12
Divya
Is it is it.

04:01.86
Divya
Is it is it.

04:02.14
Kent
Honestly made me a little bit nervous because I don't like going that deep. But um I've been pleasantly surprised at how usable fly has been.

04:10.16
Divya
I'm curious like what you're using fly specifically for on your website.

04:12.65
Kent
Yeah, yeah, so when I was building my website. Um I I started out thinking. Okay I want to um, okay, a little bit of backstory. So I was a full-time engineer at Paypal decided I wanted to go full-time teacher and I was worried.

04:29.10
Divya
And here So okay.

04:31.79
Kent
And doing that that I was going to kind of lose touch with what it was like to really build software and I'm teaching people how to build software but I don't want to lose touch and so um I figured that after a couple of years of just teaching I'd go and build something real and then you know just to refresh myself.

04:42.28
Divya
Right.

04:46.14
Kent
So this was my opportunity was like rebuilding my website I wanted to make it more significant I wanted it to be like what you would do for building a real site and so for that reason it's way more like overscoped for what a typical blog would be so I just.

04:49.20
Divya
And.

05:00.26
Divya
And yeah, yeah.

05:03.58
Kent
Wanted to have way more features and and all that So um and one of the the key things for me was to be able to deploy everywhere in the world because so I wanted it to be really really fast and choosing a particular region in the world just means that um.

05:13.39
Divya
That's isn't it.

05:21.37
Kent
You are limited on how fast you can be on the other side of the world. So if you wanted to be fast in China that's great, just deploy to Hong Kong but now everybody in light chicago is experiencing a slow connection. so um yeah so ah that was the first thing that really got me excited about fly was the multi-regional deployment.

05:22.61
Divya
Yes, yeah, you write? yeah.

05:38.84
Divya
Is.

05:40.95
Kent
Um, and so and and even like serverless functions you have to choose a region so like which is to me I'm just like why don't they like why? Why do they do that and you know if it's so simple and straightforward just you know it.

05:43.64
Divya
Yes.

05:49.64
Divya
I had.

05:56.18
Kent
You don't need to be on a specific box with serverless. So you know why don't you make it on all of the boxes. So anyway, um I was really attracted by that I started out using firebase for my data and then I realized oh man if all my data is in firebase I have to choose a region for that too. So like anytime you have to choose a region for anything.

05:57.24
Divya
Is it.

06:10.58
Divya
Yeah, you do? yep.

06:15.89
Kent
You're putting your users on the slow path. Um, you know so doing regional Deploys is going to be a little bit better. But if your data is not there too. It's It's not going to be as good as it could be so that was when I saw that fly supported ah postgres clusters that are with read Replicas all over the world.

06:24.23
Divya
Yep.

06:28.64
Divya
This is.

06:33.54
Kent
Like ah okay there we go now I can do this and and so I handled my own authentication and I did read replicas with postgresql read replicas with Redis as well. Um, and so yeah I'm using fly I've got 3 apps.

06:38.34
Divya
Nice. Here.

06:49.71
Kent
For my website one is for the the note server that's a long-running process for my site and it needs to be a note server long running process because I actually generate podcast episodes on the fly on my well on on the fly. Yes is on.

06:54.97
Divya
And.

07:06.81
Kent
On my on my notde server. So like I'm I'm doing things that you need a long running process for and then I have redis for my cache that is on fly it takes like five milliseconds to get something out of my redis cache because like it's right there and then postgres and.

07:09.62
Divya
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

07:24.33
Kent
Most of my queries finish in like fifty milliseconds for postgres. So sometimes I'll I'll cache some of those too. But um, yeah, that is what I'm using fly for I deploy to 6 regions I could probably deploy it to a couple more but that is what I'm using fly for.

07:28.47
Divya
Um, is it.

07:34.59
Divya
Yeah that's awesome I mean that's a perfect use case because like that is sort of the whole ethos of using a fly as compared to a lot of other providers out there. It's just like. I think we get this question a lot It's just like why would we use fly and it's oftentimes just the ability to deploy full stack apps or app servers closer to your users because I mean you explained it really? Well there tends to be a specific like you have to pick your region whenever you deploy an app. Ah, like with Aws or with like firebase. There's a lot of this kind of thing which is interesting because then you have that and then we talked about this on the other podcast this like dichotomy between like we have this the like static cdn pops being very like.

08:15.30
Kent
Um, yeah.

08:25.60
Divya
Spread out across the world and being very available and then servers not being the case so you would have to like pick a specific region and so like if you're serving static assets great. It's fast. But if you wanted to do something that's Server-side. It's going to take a bit longer. The latency is like something that you kind of have to deal with. And yeah, it's really nice that fly gives you that access without like and it's also like you said it's not.. It's low level enough like it gives you that configuration access but it also doesn't make you do a lot of that work like you don't have to do a lot of the work. It's just like okay here's a. Like you can configure it in this specific Way. You can use the cli you can write a toml file and then we do the rest for you.

09:05.64
Kent
Yeah, totally like it blew my mind. How straightforward it was to deploy a multi-region postgres cluster like that's that's literally just a couple of commands that you run and Boom Now you have read Replicas and everything now integrating that.

09:14.89
Divya
A.

09:24.59
Kent
And from the application code Standpoint is a little bit tricky and because it's application code we can make libraries for that and and I know that fly is planning on doing some some of that stuff in the future. But but yeah, like the the part that is hard for me as ah, primarily a front-end engineer. Um.

09:29.68
Divya
Is it.

09:40.73
Divya
Is it.

09:43.76
Kent
Fly makes a lot easier and I certainly fly enables me to do things that I I could not do with existing services and stuff that um I mean Aws can you basically can do anything that you want to on that platform I'm sure. But but.

09:48.73
Divya
Is it.

09:55.37
Divya
Oh definitely? yeah yeah yeah I think we called it like the difference between Aws and fly is this whole like by versus build thing and in a ws.

09:59.87
Kent
There's a reason why they have certification programs for it of yeah.

10:10.25
Kent
Um.

10:14.21
Divya
You have the ability to do a lot of this stuff but you sort of have to build it yourself and you have to know like you said you have to have all this knowledge of how to build it and sometimes that requires you to like hire someone who's very very specialized in Aws Technologies and like has done the specifications.

10:16.89
Kent
Yeah.

10:33.28
Divya
And in fly it's a buy model where it's like okay we want we allow you to do so the same things more or less. But um, you don't have to have all this prior knowledge in order to do that. It's fairly like configured for you. We kind of give you some guardrails um and a basic. Understanding so you don't have to know everything you just need to know like okay I want these particular regions or I want like this size of a Vm and then we do the rest.

10:58.23
Kent
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and it's only been getting easier to configure even like through the ui you can now like scale and and choose the size of your vms and everything right through the ui which has gotten a lot easier to use too. So um. Fly definitely is is only getting started from my perspective on ease of use which I think is cool. 1 other thing that I I thought was interesting is Ryan Florence recently I was doing some experimenting and um, found out that. If he deployed in I think in Virginia and then hit it from Hong Kong it actually only added like two hundred milliseconds to the request time which was a ah little surprising to both him and me because I I was always under the impression that um.

11:35.55
Divya
Is it.

11:50.94
Kent
You go to the other side of the world. You're adding at least a half a second maybe a full second and um and just because you know the speed of light. But um, what's interesting though is because of the way that fly works I know that wherever ah user is in the world.

11:51.75
Divya
This is.

12:09.33
Kent
They're going to connect to the fly region. That's closest to them regardless of whether I've deployed my app there and then from there the request gets you know gets handled by whatever region and so um and maybe other form providers. Do this magic in the background but like this is very observable with fly.

12:10.14
Divya
Is it.

12:27.69
Kent
Ah, that once you get into the fine network then that network of speed is like outrageously fast and that that explains the 200 millisecond thing. Can you speak to that anymore is that like a unique value proposition of fly.

12:38.36
Divya
Yeah I think there's like so 1 thing that we do offer within fly is this ability for you to connect um servers I don't know the specifics behind that particular thing because I actually haven't worked on that um much. But um. What fly does when you do deploy across regions is that we create this private network that you have access to a lot of your servers and your nodes and so it sort of creates this mesh um that then allows you to make requests across um and I think that could be what. You are experiencing in terms of the speed of how things are doing because it's not It's sort of bypassing a lot of um, normal connections and it's sort of making it a bit faster. Potentially so it's connecting directly to an instance that's closest to you and like creating that. Yeah, within that mesh probably doing that I would imagine.

13:32.98
Kent
Yeah that's cool and since you brought up the the private network thing this is actually another really cool thing about fly that I liked and that is actually just the other day I was the remix Utah meetup and I was you know showing. My website and stuff and I accidentally opened up and this was being live streamed and everything I accidentally opened up my dot e and v file and and so that I revealed my discord bot token and a couple other things and also I almost reveal I I did reveal.

13:57.74
Divya
Oh fun. Yeah.

14:10.86
Divya
And.

14:11.22
Kent
My Redis yeah url and I had not configured my redis app to be ah, only accessible within the private network and so that I needed to fix but then ah I It also showed my production postgres database connection stream. Um, it didn't show the whole thing but it.

14:24.80
Divya
Is.

14:31.60
Kent
Almost did. But even if it had that connection string was using the dot internal T ah tld which is like specific to that in the internal network. So even if it had people still wouldn't have been able to access my postgres database which is really cool.

14:36.50
Divya
Yeah.

14:43.78
Divya
Yeah, yeah I think that's something that we wanted to configure because it's also a way for because most of the time when you have a database that's running on a server. It's sort of accessible to some extent if you have like you know that particular internal url or like a key. Um, but within fly because it's your own private network. It's very difficult for someone to access it. So It's very isolated from the public network and so if you have data you sort of don't have to worry about someone getting access to it. Um, which is honestly like a huge win in that sense because often. When you talk about how people so like when you talk about multi-region data or having to like use a serverless kind of solution to databases. That's often the the critique It's just like okay it has to live publicly which means it can be accessible if I like accidentally expose a yeah url or a token. Automatically someone gets access to it. But if it's not someone who's on that particular org or on that particular network and has that access they will not be able to use it at all. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

15:51.13
Kent
Yeah I think that's that's Awesome. You need 2 keys to get into this database.? Yeah yeah I think that is just super super cool. Um, and on that note it actually another cool thing about multi-regional deploys. Is ah stuff like Gdpr and you know data regulations on where you can store data for users in different countries and stuff and because of and um, the ability to to deploy a fly cluster or or at least to deploy to so and multiple regions that actually makes.

16:08.56
Divya
Is it.

16:28.23
Kent
Handling those use cases a lot easier as well. Right.

16:30.43
Divya
Definitely yeah, definitely because you can again like you have access to that isolation layer and you can just like configure things. Appropriately.

16:38.36
Kent
Yeah, yeah, so you can have your your single app. But if your user is coming from I don't know which countries have these regulations but we'll just say Germany then you can just say well. Okay, your data is going to live here. Yeah, that's super cool.

16:46.58
Divya
Um, yeah data is only going to live there? Yeah yeah.

16:56.25
Kent
Cool well are are there other features of fly that are like especially useful for remix users or or for that make user experience. Really awesome.

17:04.63
Divya
I think you've spoken to a lot of it. So like the biggest use case particularly for frontend apps is the ability to run your like a backend or a database and like I guess in remix specifically, it's databases. That's the huge cell um because in general like flies. Also it's. Catered towards a lot of full stack. So a lot of the users with within fly are of of course like from the elixir community. So like Phoenix users are actually huge within fly. Um and they really enjoy it because that's sort of that ecosystem and similar to like rails because it's a full stack solution.

17:29.90
Kent
Ah.

17:43.90
Divya
And remix obviously has aspects of that. But um, a lot of the times the background of the users tend to be front-end developers right? So and then their concerns is like okay I have this front-end app and then like I also want to have data somewhere and so that's sort of how fly. Comes in because it allows you to like 1 you can server-side render stuff and then two you can also use postgres clusters like you mentioned that are multi-region and so you have access to that itself and I think that's the biggest cell honestly. I would say um because there's a lot of other features like you know how exactly you're configuring things or if you want to like I don't know ah scale things in a specific way. You can do a lot of that. But I think that's the main like databases is probably the biggest thing. Yeah.

18:31.18
Kent
Absolutely um, so Kurt the the I think he's the founder of of fly. He's a really cool cool guy very smart. Um, but he mentioned to me that um.

18:37.27
Divya
Yeah, is.

18:47.30
Kent
His goal for fly was that people would be build a Cdn on top of fly. Um, which is interesting.

18:49.48
Divya
Yeah, yeah, so I think because fly basically gives you that ability that there's a lot of like this understanding of how companies tend to build off of other infrastructure like big tech infrastructure so you would like. And don't know a company like netlify for example or whatever out there would build on top of like Aws or Gcp or whatever. So it's like existing infrastructure and fly sort of does its ah like it doesn't build on top of that. It's sort of our own infrastructure in our own stuff.

19:23.11
Kent
Hey.

19:25.35
Divya
And so in that sense like that's sort of the like I think this overarching goal is this whole um, creating an ecosystem outside of big tech to some extent. So you're like okay you you have obviously concerns around how you know like aw the ethics of Aws or whatever.

19:35.10
Kent
Um.

19:45.12
Divya
Um, a company like fly or io is sort of focused on and we don't I don't think we ever have aspirations of becoming huge and having like giant enterprise customers or anything like that of course that that's where the money is and Kurt has rented a butt this many times but I think our ideal.

19:59.10
Kent
Ah.

20:04.98
Divya
User ah developers like you and just people building apps on their own or smaller consultancies building apps for clients. Um, because the use cases and the needs are very small and also like we want to hone in on giving people access and. Enabling the developer experience of that itself and so it sort of gives agency where you might not feel that way when you're using something like Google cloud or a of us because it's very much like in that sense. You're being sold a product and then there's a lot more to it rather than in this case, it's like this is what we do and we're going to do it really well and then you can build your whatever on top of our infrastructure and we're going to make sure that it's rock. Solid. The foundation is rock. Solid.

20:53.82
Kent
I think that's great. You're kind of like ah a safe haven from Aws and they're they're definitely um, some reasons to not want to be on Aws um, and that's interesting to me that um yeah, like.

20:59.16
Divya
Yeah, yeah, in a way.

21:13.68
Kent
So on on the days where basically the entire internet is down. Everybody can go to my website because it's not on a of us. Ah, that's that's kind of a unique value proposition in itself. Cool. So can you tell me a little bit about what.

21:18.33
Divya
Exactly Yeah there you go.

21:30.86
Kent
Um, the future holds for fly and and what people can look forward to in the future with fly.

21:33.97
Divya
Yeah, So we're working actively on making like the postgres user experience a lot better and easier and so that involves like we're essentially like sort of working on the cli and the commands and making that use case that. That user experience a bit smoother. Um, and then we're also working on just making machines better. So like how do you access them? How do you work with them. How do you launch them and so on and giving users a bit more control over that particular piece because right now. Um the way we do a lot of things sort of. Internally, Um, it doesn't like we try to give users a lot more control but within the configuration it doesn't allow that So like scheduling particular servers or scheduling so or picking specific regions and so on like there are some portions that are not very smooth.

22:21.80
Kent
And.

22:31.20
Divya
Um, and so internally we're working on making that process a bit easier and a bit clearer so that from a user perspective. You don't again have to understand a lot of things we sort of do a lot of the work and we make things faster because we currently are Using. Like specific technologies that have certain latency issues because of how we're using it and so hopefully we're going to fix that and things might be a bit faster. Yeah.

22:54.81
Kent
That oh sweet. Yeah I do have some queries on my postgres database that take upwards of like one hundred milliseconds and I'm like oh that doesn't all good. So yeah, making that? Yeah yeah, that's awesome I stick a cache in front of it and and it's not a big deal. But.

23:04.98
Divya
Yeah, we're working on making it faster. Yeah.

23:14.60
Kent
Yeah, some of them can be quite long like I have the blog team rankings so you can sign up on my site and choose ah a team and then as you read blog post. It'll add a point for your team and.

23:24.20
Divya
A. Oh cool. Yeah.

23:31.73
Kent
And determining the the rankings of those um of the teams on the blog posts ends up being 9 queries to postgres. So yeah I mean if I were like more of a sql nerd then I could probably figure out a single query to make it happen. But.

23:38.93
Divya
Wow! yeah. Sure yeah.

23:48.45
Kent
Um, I mean I know some sql geniuses and they can do some amazing stuff with that text. But um, but yeah so those queries I definitely am caching with redis but like fly just makes it pretty dame easy for me to to have both and even even if it.

23:58.26
Divya
And.

24:06.86
Kent
Weren't caching postgres queries I'd also be caching other stuff so having a Reddit server is ah is pretty good I am looking forward though to everything getting a little faster. That's always ah, a nice thing. Yeah.

24:07.76
Divya
Right? yeah.

24:17.38
Divya
Yeah, yeah, performance is always nice.

24:22.95
Kent
So Divia is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to talk about before we start to wrap things up.

24:27.40
Divya
I think we covered a lot of the highlights. Um, yeah I think I don't know if this is a common question you get. But 1 thing that I get when I join fly at least or when I started using fly in the beginning is like. You get a lot of the comparisons between like why would I use fly and I think that's a question that I often have to answer so I think we talked maybe we I mean we talked about using fly but I think we've not actually brought up like the other like we talked about Aws a bit but I think um.

24:50.31
Kent
Um, ah.

25:04.30
Divya
Um, there's like render that comes up and heroku that comes up as comparisons direct comparisons because especially with heroku I guess renders the newer 1 right? but Heroku has been like sort of the longrunning contender in that it's in I don't even know when it started but. It was sort of like if you want to deploy a full stack app you would use Heroku um, and that was that was sort of the thing and I guess now there's render as well and render has a very similar proposition where it's like if you're on to deploy a full stack app you could use render.

25:25.63
Kent
Yeah.

25:40.42
Divya
And there's differences between the two because like heroku for example I think the way we talk about it internally is that fly is Heroku that you don't outgrow um because it's it's just like a bit I think also heroku is like.

25:50.21
Kent
Um, ah it's yeah.

25:59.30
Divya
Value proposition changed because they're very much an enterprise model now rather than for like the average developer. Essentially yeah and so that like that's the way I see it just like if you were to compare um fly to I O to heroku. It's just in a way.

26:02.22
Kent
Yeah, they're basically just to host Salesforce Apps Now that's like yeah.

26:17.86
Divya
It's what Heroku should have been um, had it not gone the enterprise out I mean I guess and then with render as well I guess it's it's actually a very good comparison because I think render does a really good job with with the developer experience. They're fantastic. Um, but render does not do multi region. Well.

26:22.91
Kent
R.

26:35.80
Kent
Yeah.

26:37.33
Divya
Um, and I think that is the biggest issue that I've faced when I've used Render is just like oh do you want to use us East I'm just like are you is that it? um and I think they're probably did I think they are working on it I've seen a lot of tweets where they've mentioned it. Um.

26:45.56
Kent
There.

26:55.19
Divya
And so and I think similarly similarly they don't have a lot of the private networking stuff that we have um as well. So I think those are the 2 things but again like render is a wonderful tool I don't want to say don't use render because it's great and the dx is you know, like very smooth I would say.

26:59.59
Kent
The.

27:12.69
Divya
Maybe this is a fair This is fair for me to say but the dx is probably better than us right now. Um because they are. They've been working on that very aggressively and they've done a fantastic job. Um, and so yeah, that's basically the.

27:15.93
Kent
Ah.

27:28.79
Kent
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely I think that um developer experiences an input into the end-user experience which is like the entire thing that we're what we're trying to do um is is make awesome user experiences wherever you end up deploying.

27:28.89
Divya
I would bring that as a last point of just a comparison between what's ah, what else is out there.

27:37.89
Divya
This this is.

27:48.43
Kent
And I feel like nailing that user experience first is really good which is why I'm I'm really bullish on fly because um, you you just embrace the fact that hey user experience is improved if you can deploy it to multiple regions and and then you can back into a.

28:02.50
Divya
Is is.

28:06.96
Kent
And improve the developer experience. It's much harder to to start with developer experience and then back into a better user experience and so I think that's what remix did we're working on our our developer experience as well. But nailing that user experience first I think is really.

28:13.58
Divya
Yes.

28:23.73
Divya
Yeah, definitely it's just finding that niche of like Okay, what are developer What do developers care about and what do they want and then once you have that answer. It's like okay we're gonna fix and build around that and now that we have this, We're sort of.

28:24.70
Kent
Critical.

28:41.44
Divya
At the point where we're trying to make the user experience better and encourage like sort of building use cases for why you use fly and like the different pathways to using fly. Um, and so. And it's really nice because the infrastructure and a lot of the platform is in place to support that.

28:58.55
Kent
Yeah, yeah, absolutely well. Awesome. Um, so we've got our our last thing to leave our audience with and that is if there was 1 thing that people could do to improve their user experience. What would it be Div. Yeah.

29:15.98
Divya
Ah, that's a question to answer. Um I think I don't know if there's 1 thing but 1 thing that I at least something that helps you get there is usually like being a user of the thing that you're building. Um, because I find and this is something I find like having worked in developer tooling a lot too that often you the people who build the thing don't use the thing and so that means that you make assumptions as to like oh this should be pretty straightforward. Um.

29:43.89
Kent
Um.

29:54.47
Divya
Think for instance, like within fly. For example, something that kept being a snafu is with the credit card information. So if you use the cli we try to push people to use the cli but the cli pushes people back into the Ui and and it's kind of a frustrating user experience if you've ever like.

30:07.21
Kent
Ah.

30:13.34
Divya
Been on the other side of using it because it's like oftentimes when you're in a cli like you don't want to go to the Ui like you want to stay within that context and so it's very jarring for you to be pulled back and forth. Um, and so for me at least in.

30:18.90
Kent
Or have.

30:24.69
Kent
A.

30:30.13
Divya
To answer your question which is not really answering your question. It's It's very useful to be a user and sort of have that empathy so that you can build better products. Um, and that's what I try to do a lot within fly because it's like I'm building something. It's fairly like platform and low level because it's.

30:39.35
Kent
Heard.

30:49.20
Divya
Sort of like dealing with networking and so on but I have to always pull my pull myself out and understand the bigger picture of like okay how a user is going to interact with this and what are the implications.

31:00.61
Kent
Yeah, yeah I think that's awesome, Really good advice use the software I I've worked at some companies where I was absolutely not a user of the software I didn't care anything about as a user the software and it was a lot harder for me to answer questions. And yeah I Guess in those situations just really rely on product. But so.

31:21.79
Divya
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but when you're at a startup. It's way too small for that so you kind of are doing your building but you're also building the roadmap in a way which is like I think.

31:27.87
Kent
Yeah.

31:33.50
Kent
A.

31:37.80
Divya
1 thing why I really like startups a lot because it gives you that ability to move back and forth. So it's not someone else making those product decisions you building. The product can offer product decisions. Yeah.

31:48.10
Kent
yeah yeah I love it. Cool Divvia what's the best place for people to keep up with you and what you're doing.

31:57.10
Divya
I'm usually on Twitter and everywhere at short Div. So that's probably the first place to find me.

32:01.80
Kent
Okay, sounds great Then I'll link to that in the description. Thank you so much for joining us this season and have a wonderful day.

32:10.58
Divya
Cool.