00:00.00
Kent
Hello friends this is your friend Kent C. Dodds. This is actually that's the way I always start the chats with kent podcast. Maybe I should come up with a different different thing since this is the remix podcast and we're so excited to have you here for this first episode of. Ah, the first official we had like a trailer episode so there was like a little bit there but this is the first official episode of the remix podcast where we talk about how you can make your user experience better for anything that you're doing on the web how you can make that better and I'm so excited to be joined by my friend shonda person. And I'd love for you all to meet her so shonda could you give us a little intro to yourself.

00:37.49
Shaundai
Hey Kent yes I'd be glad to. I'm Shaundai Person. I am a senior software engineer at Netflix I'm also a and sorry I'm on the ui side. So I'm a ui engineer. My tech stack is. Typically just react and typescript I also use a bit of graphql on the job. Um, in addition to that I am an instructor for egghead and an organizer for a community called react-robins where community community for it started out as ah as a in-person meetup and now that. We're in the virtual world. Everything happens virtually so every month we'll do an event dedicated to folks in our community who are react enthusiasts who identify as women or non-binary folks. So if you're interested in that check us out on Twitter. You can also find me on Twitter and my handle is just my first name at sean day.

01:33.54
Kent
You oh that's awesome. You don't sound busy at all. So being yeah that you had so many things to talk about you. Also I want to mention you're a single mom and you have an adorable 4 year old boy. Um, and so yeah, you're like you've got tons of stuff.

01:37.32
Shaundai
Plenty of spare time.

01:48.59
Shaundai
That's right? yeah.

01:52.31
Kent
That you're doing How do you do it and.

01:52.50
Shaundai
Ah, it's a lot of coffee a lot less sleep than than I would like um and yeah I take I take breaks. But um, I've been on this Anti-burnout campaign recently and been working on focusing a lot On. Just stopping to smell the roses and take take time to be present with my family and my son So these days you won't be finding me as at as many conferences and and talks and things. Um, really? Ah, just I'll be at the park with my with my kiddo.

02:27.69
Kent
Ah, that's that's wonderful and that makes me even more appreciative that you've given me some of your time for this podcast. So wow like I feel honored. Thank you? Ah, that's awesome. Um, and and I love that you're really being thoughtful about that. There was 1 year when I was first starting to get into speaking.

02:29.53
Shaundai
The most part. Oh.

02:34.21
Shaundai
Ah, of course of course.

02:46.80
Kent
That I went to seventeen conferences that year and um and my wife was like can we not do that again because one night when I'm gone like she she has all the kids to herself we we have 4 kids and it is a lot of work. So yeah, yeah, so.

02:47.92
Shaundai
Ah, my gosh.

03:02.64
Shaundai
I don't blame her. Yeah and I um, another thing like I I'm I'm definitely not the person to tout like just go crazy. Go Nuts. Don't you know, don't do seventeen conferences if you have the option but um. Was very intentional in 2021? Um I had these certain goals that I want I set out to achieve and I'm very extremist when it comes to anything like it's I'm all in or I'm just not in it at all. Um, so when I first entered the text space. I really really had this goal um of becoming an engineer and then once I moved into engineering I wanted to become ah a senior and I wanted to work at Netflix and I did everything strategically to get myself in a position where I could. Pass an interview at Netflix now that I'm here. That's my cue to kind of take a break so I'm not I wouldn't advocate for the hustle culture or anything like that. Um I don't I'm not a big proponent of like skipping sleep and you know skipping your child's events and things just be. Be intentional about the things that are important to you and focus on that while it's important and then feel free to let it change like I don't have to be a ah big conference speaker for the rest of my life like now that I've gotten to that goal. There's new things on my plate.

04:28.22
Kent
I Yeah I Totally agree with that. My early career was hustling so that I could enjoy. Um, you know what I have now which I don't have to hustle as much.

04:38.68
Shaundai
Yeah, um.

04:40.71
Kent
Although now I'm like cofounder of remix and really trying to make this successful so I'm kind of back to that. But like that's the cool thing you you can kind of change and and you know be flexible with your career and stuff. But um, 1 ah other thing that I'm really grateful for is that just last week I give you a tour of remix.

04:46.54
Shaundai
Yeah.

04:59.80
Kent
And so you gave me that time also and then you you told me that you'd play around with remix a little bit in preparation for this podcast so you could kind of give us a first impressions sort of experience. But before we get into that when we were talking in our our guided tour. You told me a little bit about your. Path to get into tech and I was just really impressed by that. Um, and just thought it was really awesome and also you have a unique perspective that I think works nicely with remix too. So can you give us a little bit of a tour of of how you got into tech in the first place so

05:31.98
Shaundai
Yeah I would love to so um, it's no secret I am a career switcher I spent the majority of my career in sales and um, um, most of that most of the sales career was in tech sales and how I got into sales in the first place was. I when I was in high school just trying to decide on a major I was gonna go to school for fashion design and I thought that fashion was the best combination of all of my skills and interests I liked to draw I liked to um design and um. Like to collaborate with other people and I thought that um you know, just finding clothes that were a good fit for my customer was um, a really good use of my skills and my my communication skills so when I told my mom who was a guidance counselor at the time. High school guidance counselor I told her that I wanted to go to school for fashion design. She was like I will not pay for your degree if you go to school for fashion. Yeah, so I was like all right? Well what if I went to school for business because I want to have a fashion business and she was like okay you've got it. So I went to school and I majored in entrepreneurship and my.

06:32.32
Kent
Ah, oh no.

06:40.00
Kent
I.

06:48.50
Shaundai
Entrepreneurship professor told me that the best way to understand what it's like to be an entrepreneur is to do a commission only sales job and I did it and I loved it. It gets you experience with that hustle. Um, really understanding what it takes like when when you're in sales. Um, especially when you're in either a commission only or a um sas sales um software as a service. Your customers are only paying for you while they like you so it's important to make sure that you're always in tune with the customer's Needs. What makes them happy in constant communication checking in. Listening for their requirements and then translating that back to the people who can make the difference. Um, so through my sales career I got to hone in my skills for communication. Great listening. But I also got experience when I moved into tech sales being able to really see Firsthand like my. My customers. Um I was working for a company called mathworks which um creates a software for engineers called matlab and semilink and my customers were literal Rocket scientists like Nasa was my customer blue origin was my customer and.

07:54.61
Kent
And that that's not like um, intimidating at all. So.

08:00.43
Shaundai
Right? And I'm like 24? Um, and so these people are very very senior and super brilliant and at the time you know my customer would be saying 1 thing and they'd be like okay I want Matlab to be able to do this or how would I be able to do this I'd have. To basically take in a translator to understand what they're doing which they're called them. Sales engineers take them in um and then there was this game a telephone from the point that the information left the customer's mouth to the point that it got back to the developer team if it got there at all and I really saw Firsthand. How ah how big of a gap. There was between what the customer was saying and what that developer ended up hearing as their priorities. What was important to the customers. Um and developers a lot of times and it's ah it's a shame so it's kind of my personal mission. Um, they.

08:46.63
Kent
M.

08:57.57
Shaundai
Live in this bubble where they don't get that the experience talking to the customers and um, understanding what their real needs are they build the things that they think are cool or is going to either create the best experience for them as a developer or um, just something that they think is going to make the. The tool cooler. Whatever that means is it better than the competition is it faster? Um, but is that really what the customer wants. Um, maybe they just want this additional feature. Maybe they you built this feature that they're never even going to use because in their day-to-day Work. It has nothing to do with that. So um, my mission is to connect.

09:21.48
Kent
Right? Yeah I.

09:34.63
Shaundai
The customer with the actual engineer and so I think that was a big ah piece of value that I added to the team at Netflix our our team is internal but um and so we have the opportunity to just have these conversations with other netflix engineers and say okay is this what you want like. Does this kind of meet your needs or is there anything that you would add to this and um, get that get that constant feedback. But um, some engineers are scared to do it or they maybe not lazy but um, they just they don't see the value in it and so um I am very vocal about. Creating a really good experience for the customers and and for the ah for the just for the people who are using your your platform so that's kind of that's my my value here.

10:19.79
Kent
And. Yeah, yeah, oh I Love I Think that's that's awesome and so you're working in sales. Well we we didn't quite get there. There are a lot of things I want to talk about?? Um, but I want to make sure that we we cover that transition from sales into engineering because I I feel like I'm always just really impressed. Especially. Um, people who have are in 1 industry and they're happy or or like generally happy there or things are going going well and they have to kind of take take a step back to to be able to to kind of start fresh in a new career and especially yeah as a mother a single mother making that transition. So I'd Love. So Give you a chance if you'd like to describe that process as Well. So.

11:03.40
Shaundai
Yeah, um, so when even when I was selling to the engineers I was really so I was great at sales. Um, and I thought this was. My calling but I always saw something different for myself in the background like maybe as ah entrepreneurship I didn't really see myself in the position of my sales manager or the the vps. Um, but I knew there was something out there different now engineering ah from where I sat when I was selling to these Rocket scientists. I was like I need these advanced degrees and I astrophysics and you know all these different kinds of things in order to be an engineer and I had already I already had my bachelor's in business and um I think it was a couple maybe 5 years later I went back and got my mba so I had a good amount of student loans. Um, and I was.

11:42.39
Kent
Yeah.

11:50.52
Kent
That wow.

11:55.56
Shaundai
Like in my head very invested in business like this is this is my thing. Um, there's no turning back and I didn't see myself switching away from anything like that I Also um had this stereotype of what an engineer was in my head and I think we can all imagine.

12:12.00
Kent
What that looks like.

12:13.98
Shaundai
The engineer with the it Coke bottle glasses just sitting in a dark room all day just plugging away. There's Zeros and ones on the machine. Nothing exciting about that kind of life. That's not what I wanted and I'm like listen I'm too social for any ah, any of that. So I that was like.

12:21.73
Kent
Yeah, ah, ah.

12:33.25
Shaundai
No, um, that's that's not the world for me now. Fast forward to 2015? Um I decided to quit the workforce and pursue my passions for entrepreneurship. So I started an online business which was powered by shopify I was selling. Um. Basically anything you would find in a whole foods like organic and natural foods baby care pet care I Thought what I would like the most about that was the selling aspect of it and I was really good at that I got some really big customers. But what I actually found was the most fascinating was. Learning Liquid which is shopify's ruby-based language to customize my shopify website and so I was like syncing up these widgets with my site I was integrating this and that I was like building you know, have these little banners and everything I had this the coolest website of anybody and I had people coming to me like.

13:24.23
Kent
I.

13:30.25
Shaundai
Hey cause I was part of these different entrepreneurship communities and they were like Well how did you do that and could I pay you to do that for me and I was like so I could get paid for doing this fun thing so that was like a whole that was like a mind blowing experience but still at the same time I had like um, all the student loans and I was. In my head very invested in sales and I thought that I needed to have a degree in order to do this kind of full time. Um I ended up getting pregnant and then going back into the workforce because I needed Health insurance. Um, but I still had this. Idea in my head that like I wanted to learn to code as a hobby and this ad came up um for code Academy targeted at ads I I know they were They know what I'm up to um.

14:15.97
Kent
I.

14:20.67
Shaundai
And this ad came up and I saw somebody commented underneath the ad and they said hey you don't have to have a degree to be a web Developer. You can be like I'm self-taught and I'm I mean I do this for my job and I was like what like that was just like the the that was the mind blowing moment for me. Um, and so I I got to. Six months subscription to code Academy started doing it on the side mind you I have a newborn and um, yeah, and so I gave myself like half an hour a day because I'm like realistically what you know what can I dedicate to this? Um, but I loved it so much I would put my son to sleep and then I'd get my little half hour.

14:43.27
Kent
Wow.

14:49.15
Kent
I.

14:59.21
Shaundai
And I would stay up until like 12 1 in the morning every morning like 3 or four hours coding because I loved it so much I was so invested in it. Um, and so just 1 day I can't even pinpoint the exact moment I was like I'm doing this.

15:03.94
Kent
Oh oh.

15:16.80
Shaundai
So much like I Really enjoy this like I look forward to my time doing this I should be doing this for a living and you know I looked up like what kind of money do engineers make or web Developers make and um I was like you know what? this is like I I think I could make a career doing this like you know sales isn't because for me, it was sales.

15:30.28
Kent
Yeah.

15:35.85
Shaundai
Was the safe path and I know it sounds kind of funny to say if you have never been in sales before because you know a lot of at least fifty percent of your um, actual take home is reliant on the success of the the market or your ability to do sales. It's all commissioned so it's.

15:49.54
Kent
And.

15:53.72
Shaundai
It it is very volatile and risky but to me because I was always good at it and consistently good at it that was my safe path. So um, it was scary to think of taking a leap out of something that I had been in for 12 years while I have a young child and then um.

15:59.87
Kent
And.

16:11.46
Shaundai
Became a single mom um early last year like right before the pandemic. Um, you know and to make this switch I ended up making the switch into engineering um at the end of 2020 and I there's ah like I can't even.

16:15.22
Kent
Well I.

16:30.30
Shaundai
Fathom when I look back I'm like what were you thinking but like I'm so glad I'm so glad that I did it. But um, yeah, like I was learning to code as my like I kept my son home from daycare during during the pandemic so he was here I was selling during the day and.

16:30.52
Kent
And.

16:42.94
Kent
And.

16:50.10
Shaundai
Like kicking butt and then you know so trying to spend time with him at the same time all while being quarantined into the same room that I'm talking to in right now. Um, and then trying to convince my engineering team at the company that I was at to let me interview for their for their. Um.

16:54.40
Kent
I and.

17:08.85
Kent
Wow.

17:09.70
Shaundai
Engineering role So I use a lot of my sales skills to like get them to see start to see me as an as an engineer and I would ask people out for coffee and I had this whole like process of how I was gonna um I was gonna like kind of close the deal like make this sale for them.

17:24.66
Kent
I Yeah yeah.

17:28.20
Shaundai
Um, and then finally the opportunity came up and all of like the culmination of over a year of work building projects working with a mentor speaking um writing blog posts I don't know if I already said building side projects. All of that stuff I was able to just flex in this interview. Is my 1 shot and I was able to make it in so'm really proud of myself. But when I think back I'm like man I don't know how you did this, you were crazy. Yeah, thanks.

17:52.96
Kent
That yeah, yeah, that's amazing. You should be proud of yourself that like that takes a lot of guts and and now like your senior engineer at Netflix that's ah that is a big deal. Um, so congratulations on that and thank you for giving us that that ah that tour of your life. Um.

18:04.72
Shaundai
Thanks! Thank you.

18:12.41
Kent
In the last couple of years. Um, so as ah, 1 of the things that you said earlier when you were talking about how it's your mission to connect what the user needs with what the developers are building. It really kind of stood out to me. Um. Like getting this tied into remix a little bit and we'll talk about what what your first impressions are here in a sec but 1 of the things that I really love about remix is that it it has enabled me to say yes when I get a feature request of some kind. Um, so like. 1 of the things that I think our end users want is um, whatever feature they want but they also want it quickly. Um and they want it to work well and um in in many cases in the years that I've been developing software. The answer is. Yes, we can do anything with enough time and money so like ah so that turns into a no pretty quickly. Um for certain feature requests and things or it turns into let's put that on the backlog. We'll get to it. Never um and so with with remix I've found that.

19:11.83
Shaundai
Oh.

19:23.10
Shaundai
No.

19:28.58
Kent
Um, it makes me productive enough and and it gets out of my way enough that I can build the types of features that my users are wanting and I can do it in a ah quick turnaround time. Um, and so anyway that was just 1 thought that I had when when you were talking about how. Ah, you want to bridge that gap between what the users are experiencing and what the developers are building. Um, yeah so um, I'd love to ask you about? Um, what your experience has been as you've been playing around with it. So I gave you this tour about a week ago or so um and then um.

19:48.82
Shaundai
Um, yeah, agree.

19:59.29
Shaundai
Is.

20:03.56
Kent
You seemed pretty excited about it which is pretty common. People seem pretty excited about when when they are kind of exposed to what it what it can do um, but yeah, what is your experience been like just playing around with it for the last little while.

20:15.82
Shaundai
Yeah I think you um, really tied together a couple of different things too. So um, 1 glaring thing that I love about remix when I was trying it is that it kind of marries the um. The developer experience in the user experience and it creates a better experience for both. So um I don't even want to say oftentimes but there are cases where you run into things like okay well am I going to do? What's best for the customer. Um, and if I do well the answer should be yes, but.

20:52.29
Kent
I right? yeah.

20:54.32
Shaundai
Um, in a lot of cases. You're faced with these different tradeoffs and you know if if I want to do this then they're gonna be missing this or it's gonna make it tough for me because I'll have to do this this this and this just to get them there. They don't see all the work that goes back there. Good ahead. No good.

21:02.94
Kent
I Yeah yeah, well and and not to interrupt you but I guess I did sorry but like just ah, an important point on that that I always told myself that yes I'm going to do this thing. That's not quite as good for the user so that I can have a better experience but that's. That is good for the user because the better experience I have the faster I can chur out the features that they want and so like that was how I thought about the tradeoff and how I convinced myself that I could write something that would be or have tools or whatever that would be better for me because then I can deliver features Faster. Um. I think I was rationalizing but that's how I always thought about it that way and.

21:41.10
Shaundai
Um, no, no I think it's it's It's perfect like it. It definitely comes Off. Um and I love it because it's just it's like I don't have to um, it's It's not this battle of me versus the the customer or the user. It's um. Hey. Let's we're working together like we're a team like let's get things done together. Um, so it it made it easy for me to just kind of outline how I would architect something.

22:01.29
Kent
Name.

22:15.80
Shaundai
Either small as my own personal site which I am going to do in remix I wanted to tell you that yes I'm going to do it in remix I'm very excited about that. Um to something bigger like um I know we talked about this when we spoke last week is

22:20.30
Kent
Woo.

22:30.18
Shaundai
Um, the application that I'm working on at Netflix which is an application that's going to be used by all of the Netflix engineers like I could see I could see it existing in both both worlds and I had written a post about um next versus gatsby and I don't want this to be like a war on.

22:49.23
Kent
Yeah.

22:49.45
Shaundai
Like which Framework is the best or anything like sorry I don't know where that voice came from but like which framework but um, 1 of the the things that I had to consider when I was thinking should someone should I recommend next or should I recommend gatsby to someone is. What size is your application like how many users are you expecting?? um, is it just something small and it's not going to change very often or is it something that is going to change frequently like a store and I can see remix working with both. Um you know so.

23:21.53
Kent
Yeah.

23:25.22
Shaundai
You know I don't know what your plans are and you know is there going to be something and an enterprise level. Um framework or is it meant for the people like me who have blogs that you know maybe a couple people are are going to read or what or but but but I can see it fitting into. Both areas very comfortably.

23:44.65
Kent
Yeah, yeah, 1 thing that we often tell people is that remix scales up and down with the complexity of what you're looking for. So um, even if you just say I just have a single page. There's no need for javascript on this page. It's just like it has a form on it or whatever and so like I don't.

23:49.00
Shaundai
And move.

24:04.10
Kent
Don't need react on this thing like there's not a lot to it but I don't want to write it in straight up html because I do have like reusable bits and stuff and so I want to have something to make that easier to maintain and remix is super well suited for that sort of thing. Especially if you have stuff like forms and things. Um and ah, but then. On the completely opposite Side. It's also super welluited for like that highp enterprisey things and and um, yeah I Definitely It's always been like used the best tool for the job and I I realized that this is you had to take this with a grain of salt because I literally. And a co-founder of remix but I feel like remix is the best tool for every job I can't think of a single web thing you could put on the web that couldn't be made better by using remix and so so I'm glad to see like that. You're kind of seeing that same vision as Well. So.

24:58.22
Shaundai
Yeah, yeah, that was really exciting to me. Um in terms of the user experience that was the first thing that I was looking for um the user experience is enhanced because 1 thing no matter whether you're looking at a small blog or an enterprise level application. Is users want things faster and um, there are ways that we can kind of get around it. We can um you know wrap things in suspense we can um, just put everything on the client if we if we want to, but um. For them. They just want to be able to see an app when they when they you know make that request to the browser and then they want it to be interactive as soon as possible and um, the kind of granular boundaries that um, you're able to put around. I don't know if it's the nested routing aspect of it and you can explain this better than I can I'm just like throwing out terms that I remember from the website but um, it kind of it creates this appearance of like almost instantaneous interactivity like um, you you showed me how um when the page is rendered.

25:51.19
Kent
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

26:02.12
Kent
And.

26:08.62
Shaundai
Well 1 the javascript I'm going to a bunch of different places but the javascript loads a lot faster. Um, but before it loads you're rendering um your components as html that actually work as an html component would so like a button would work or a form would work. Um, an anchor tag or if it's a link it would work as an anchor tag and there's ways that as I was playing around with um Remix. It was really starting to hit home is okay I'm using this link Component. It's called Capital L Link component in remix. Um, so what? I'm thinking is that when a. Ah, user Clicks the page and correct me if I'm wrong. Ah the request for the browsers made remix will render after it fetches the data render that let's say it's just a link. We'll render that link to html. Um, and that link. Actually in the browser for while that javascript is being loaded is a an anchor tag like an html a tag. Um, so it actually works as an anchor tag. So if the user is only interested in this 1 link tag and they click it.

27:08.61
Kent
Yeah.

27:21.00
Shaundai
They don't have to wait for the javascript to load for the rest of the page or wait for any um, large bundles to be ah loaded for whatever component is taking a long time like they instantaneously can navigate to the page. So It seems like it's interactive again. Almost instantaneously. And the user is not stuck with information that they're not really interested in they can act on the things that that they're using and in the page is responsive is that right? nice.

27:41.23
Kent
You? Yeah yeah, you totally get it and so like we we like to talk about how remix works remix apps work before the javascript ah hydrates and everything. And that that has some really awesome implications that you're that you were describing. Um, so I I think that is 1 of the things that I really appreciate about remix as well and and what what that does ultimately is um, you know it gives us really nice performance. Characteristics. Ah, the the loading experience is much better. Um, and so like ultimately it comes back down to that user experience and and you know what the users are looking for um and so you can build an excellent user experience and that's always the number 1 thing for for us at remix is um, let's. Um, let's say the user experience is unmoovable. You have to have an excellent user experience. Okay, so now given that we're not going to move that goal post. Let's see how we can bring a nice developer experience around that which as you said is also quite Good. So.

28:48.60
Shaundai
Definitely yeah so um, right? and then on the developer side. So Yes for the user it solves the problem of me, not having to be stuck with information or page that um is slow to load or that I'm not interested in if I have like really terrible connection I don't have to worry About. Um, just dealing with a bunch of crazy reloading things over and over in order for me to be able to get the get to the information that I want to get to from a developer perspective though you have these out of the box Components. You have these hooks that make it so like kent I was so like I was like.

29:12.13
Kent
Yeah.

29:24.84
Shaundai
Am I doing this right because it was so easy like the the data loading aspect of it I was like wait so I just have to put in a little loader component and then it the data is there like it was it was amazing. So I was I was really impressed I'm sure you get these reactions with everybody but like.

29:26.91
Kent
I.

29:34.61
Kent
I.

29:41.28
Kent
It It never gets old but.

29:43.58
Shaundai
Yeah I just ah I was like wow this is this is awesome. So from a developer perspective. Um, it reminded me of the excitement I had when when I so first used next for the when I used nextjs for the first time because it was just kind of everything was already. There that I needed. Um, but now we have the added like it's it's a lot faster. Um I think you've mentioned that it's it's a kind of language agnostic. It doesn't have to be react. Um I use react. So ah, it's great for me. But I know that it's a web framework. So um, anybody can use it so there are so many added benefits to it but also just gives you out of the box everything that you need in order to make a really fast server generated website server rendered website.

30:35.50
Kent
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, we're gonna take a quick pause before we wrap things up because I have a crying son so 1 second I'll be right back I'm going to pause the recording really quick. So don't have to chop so much out. So it'll just be sick.

30:43.47
Shaundai
Okay, okay, but the call.

30:52.70
Kent
Awesome! And so we actually just took a break for those listening because my son was crying and so I had to go take care of him so we're we're both laughing because we we love being parents and it's awesome and sometimes things like this happen. But um, we're we're down toward the end of our time now Sh And. Um, I think that if I were I'm going to give you a chance to sum up what you think are the key things here. But if I were to sum it up I would say the the biggest um thing that in this episode that we want to get across to people of like how they can improve the user experience of their app is probably listen to your users. Um, and so like whatever it is whether you're a manager product manager or ah, a team lead or an individual contributor wherever you're at, um, the work that you're doing ultimately is supposed to be in the service of your users and you need to understand what those users really. Need um and then like it's really nice to be able to use a framework like remix that allows you to say yes when the user asks for something so any other thoughts there. What what do you think is the big takeaway for you. So.

32:01.54
Shaundai
I would say that 1 hundred percent. Um, whatever you can do to find out more about your users. What's important to them. Don't guess. Ah, even if you've been in your user's shoes. You're selling to other or sorry you're work not selling. You're building for other engineers. Um, like I am you know building for other engineers who work at Netflix these are my people people have a unique perspective and they can bring different ideas to the table. So don't be afraid to if you have access to your users interview them if you don't have access to your customers. See if you can talk to your sales team. They would be so glad to have your customers coming in for a feedback session and trust me the customers. Love it um to be able to feel like they have input as an advisor for what they love about your product. What they wish they could see. Um. And even sometimes just to vent about the little gripes that they have um and to hear it from you as an engineer like this is the reason why we did that? um you know there are all there are cases where there are tradeoffs that need to be made. But 1 thing that I do love about remix is that it reduces the amount of.

32:55.97
Kent
Yeah.

33:10.82
Kent
And.

33:11.93
Shaundai
Tradeoffs that you have to make so it gives you the opportunity to have that great developer experience. Get a ton out of the box but also create a really amazing experience for your users. No matter if they you know have this great high-speed internet or if they are working in a place. In the mountains where they don't really have great internet. Um, they are able to have as great of an experience as 1 another. So Would highly recommend it. You will have your mind blown go through that remix tutorial.

33:43.71
Kent
So Oh good. Thank you so much Shonda and and I love your advice I think this was really awesome. Um, useful stuff for for people to listen to and and I'd love to actually feel free people of the who are listening to to tweet at both of us and. And tell us about your experience interviewing your users or whatever you end up doing with this ah this ideas or these ideas. Um, and on that note, what is the best way for people to reach out to you seane if they want to keep up with what you're doing and whatever.

34:13.63
Shaundai
You can always find me on Twitter I am again my my first name is my handle so it's at Seanday s h a u n d a I would love to hear from you.

34:23.86
Kent
This is awesome and also you have an egg head course. Do you want to plug that really quick. Okay.

34:28.54
Shaundai
Good call. Yeah so um, I'm working on a course to be released in Twenty Twenty two called typescript for Javascript developers so you can sign up for updates on the website t s four j s dot com that's t s f o r j s dot com.

34:44.54
Kent
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. That's great I'm looking forward to that. That's definitely needed So those anybody who stopped this episode early is seriously missing out. So.

34:46.51
Shaundai
You get some freebies there as well. Thanks yeah.

34:58.88
Kent
So those of you listening to the end good on you. You you get a shout out to that that that is gonna be really good. Um, cool hey. Thanks seane I hope to see you some more in the near future and um, yeah, we'll see all our friends later goodbye.

35:13.75
Shaundai
Bye.